Tuesday, August 22, 2017

The speech that should not be free

 Today I am going to get myself in trouble.  Specifically I am going to talk about free speech, and in the context of recent events that is a messy and charged topic.  So here goes.

The defining principle behind free speech laws and philosophies is the idea that we need to protect people's right to criticize the state and those in power.  Part of that is protecting things that aren't necessarily direct criticism but which push back against cultural norms and powerful institutions and individuals.  We definitely want to make sure people can safely say that the current leader of the nation is an asshat, that we should all be communists, that one religion or the other is nonsense, or that patriarchy is wrong.  Even if I don't agree with all of these sentiments there is a real public good in letting people talk about them without fear of government persecution.

There is some confusion on that last bit, so it should be clearly noted that free speech is NOT consequence free speech.  You may be entitled to say that Islam is evil, but Muslims are free to tell you that Christianity is evil right back.  Atheists might tell you that you are stupid and wrong because all religions are terrible, and perhaps the Jews will laugh at you and tell you that their religion is way too cool for you and you aren't invited.  The government should not censure, harass, or imprison you for saying these things, but other people are free to disagree and there will be social consequences for your statements.  These social conequences are not only acceptable, but desirable.

Just because the basic tenets of free speech are admirable does not mean that you get to say whatever you want without any pushback.

The problem with free speech right now is that it is being invoked as though saying anything you want is the goal.  It isn't.  There is nothing inherently good about spouting off your opinion.  The good comes in the improvement in human circumstances that occurs when people are free to tell those in power that they are stupid and bad.  The goal of free speech is to make the world better for people to live in. 

So when someone wants to speak publicly about their desire to murder everyone of a particular group or to simply oppress them brutally, remove their rights, or throw them out of their homes, we must decide if this sort of speech is something that we ought to protect under the banner of free speech.  The important question is this:  Is protecting this kind of speech helping to make things better for humanity?

Obviously the answer is no.

So while you can make a coherent argument that we must protect the rights of people we hate to speak their mind at the end of it you have to justify it on the basis of improving human life, not just upholding a particular social custom and set of laws.  Laws and customs are created to serve humans, not the other way around.

When a person argues that we ought to be communists I disagree with them.  However, I think the harm that comes to society from letting them speak their mind is not significant, even if you assume there is harm at all.  When a person argues that they should be free to unfurl the swastika and advocate the destruction of queer people, Jews, people of colour, etc, they are imposing a dire and terrible burden on society.  That burden is of course primarily borne by those who are already oppressed which makes it even worse.  There is no demonstrable benefit to society whatsoever in allowing this behaviour so we have a moral imperative to stop it.

While I like the concept of free speech in theory, at the moment it is brought up consistently to defend reprehensible conduct.  This is a huge problem because there are plenty of legitimate cases of speech needing defending and yet if you post on the internet that you are pro free speech in a vacuum many or most people assume you are taking a pro Nazi stance.  Free speech is so consistently being invoked as a way to excuse evil that those two words are being tainted with a dark shroud.

The idea of free speech is to protect the powerless to push back against the institutions that might otherwise oppress them.  It is not an assumption that trying to organize genocide is something that we all ought to protect.  It is there to make human life better, to defend those that cannot defend themselves from those that would hurt them.  Defending that concept, and indeed defaulting to letting people speak when we aren't sure, is a fine and noble thing.

But Nazis chanting that they want to murder all the people who aren't like them are far beyond the pale.  We can exercise judgement to know that they are evil and must be stopped, and we are capable of judging that their speech is not something that should be protected.

That doesn't mean that law and policy surrounding free speech is easy.  On the contrary, it is nearly always thorny and difficult.  Stopping the Nazis without randomly squashing other people is a difficult task from an administrative standpoint, and we don't want overreach.  However, this is a challenge worthy of our efforts, and one we must work hard to succeed at.

15 comments:

  1. So it turns out that I can justify the answer of yes, let the Nazis speak, even on your own terms. Lets start by saying that the speech part, you know, the one we're protecting here, causes no harm. The harm comes from *actions* - actually following through on killing people. Someone can shout about killing other people til they're blue in the face, but in the absence of anyone actually *doing* it, there is no harm. It's just another crazy person on a soapbox in the park. The pushback is in *more* speech, not less. If we as a society make it very clear that the *act* of killing, for *whatever* reason, is unacceptable. We don't need to shut the talker up at all to make our distaste of murder known. If everyone listening, including the talker, is aware that he's advocating murder, and murder is unacceptable, society improves, and he can advocate all he wants, but no murders will happen, because the *act* will be punished. Let's look at the flip side - he *starts* talking about killing and is immediately punished by the state and by random strangers who don't like "hate speech" (however it happens to be defined that day). The result is that he gets punished for merely talking, something most people think is an overreaction. They start to wonder what it is about his philosophy that the state wants to suppress and they find out anyway, but in private. His reasons for advocating murder are spread around, but not publicly, and anyone who agrees with them stays quiet because punishment. The populace now has a small cadre of Nazis, all of whom are that much closer to murdering someone. Society becomes worse, not better thanks to your "obvious" answer of no.
    You see, the difference between Sky and myself is one of optimism vs. pessimism. Sky feels that people are sheep who will follow someone into doing the crime of murder just because some guy says they should.
    I am an optimist.
    I believe that people are smart enough to listen to someone *say* that they should murder all the Jews and decide for themselves that maybe the crime of murder isn't for them, especially if both society and religion (thou shalt not kill) make it clear.
    In fact, most real-world haters haven't killed anyone. You should absolutely call them out on their hypocrisy, but you shouldn't stop them from speaking. Let them talk.

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    1. If I accept your first premise then much of what you say is reasonable. I don't necessarily reach the same conclusions, but we would have a debate. Unfortunately the premise that death threats which are not carried out are harmless is patently false.

      Imagine that people you care about go out into the world and someone who is armed runs up and screams at them "I am going to kill you!" They run away and cower at home, afraid to go out again. No murder took place. Only speech. And yet harm has been done. We don't allow people to threaten others with death for exactly this reason, and I am confident that you would not look at your loved ones hiding behind their curtains, terrified to go outside, and say that everything is just fine.

      When someone preaches that everyone in their church is going to heaven but that everyone else will be tormented forever by God, I hate it. But I don't think there is a serious threat and I don't think people by and large have their lives ruined by it.

      When someone argues in public that statues to Confederate leaders ought to stay in place, I think they are racist shitstains. But I don't think we ought to lock them up.

      But when they wave flags that stand for flat out genocide, when they chant slogans that call for the murder or ouster or enslavement of groups of people, these things cause harm. Real harm. The people they target live in fear afterwards. Stopping nazi marches is just as obvious a good as making it illegal to threaten someone's life is.

      I am not a pessimist that thinks that everyone will follow the Nazis. Mostly people won't. Very probably their movement amounts to nothing. But I look back at the Crusades, and the Holocaust, and the Rwandan genocide, and so many other atrocities, and it is clear to me that the threat is real. It is even more clear to those who are the ones being threatened.

      If I must oppress someone who wants to murder 2/3rds of the population to have a pure white state and prevent them speaking, or I must let Jews, queer people, people of colour, and many others live in terror of mobs beating down their doors and executing them... well, then the choice is clear as day.

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  2. Not to mention that public death threats can be used to direct OTHERS to carry out those threats. As an analogy: soliciting a hit man is not protected as free speech.

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  3. "Imagine that people you care about go out into the world and someone who is NOT armed runs up and screams at them "I am going to kill you!" - you wouldn't be worried at all. Notice that you had to add a rider to the speech. Someone *who is armed* - the armed part of that is an action and a threat, not speech. I'm talking about pure speech here. The people advocating violence in the Crusades, the Holocaust and the Rwandan genocide were advocating murder AND had political or religious power. The speech part was harmless or mostly harmless. The abuse of power was the problem. The Crusades in particular are a great example, but not for you. The Christian knights needed to be absolved of murdering infidels by the church before they even left. The Crusades needed funding as well. The church had been speaking out against other religions for years, and nothing came of it. Deliberate planning, high-level clergy AND money were needed to get the Crusades in motion. I'm afraid you haven't convinced me, and the choice is nowhere near day.

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    1. You opened this argument by suggesting that death threats aren't a problem unless the person issuing the death threat is carrying a weapon. Death threats are illegal in every nation whose laws I am familiar with because there is a very broad consensus they are harmful. It is extremely hard to take arguments seriously if you are willing to suspend your knowledge that death threats are wrong in order to make them.

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  4. But when they wave flags that stand for flat out genocide, when they chant slogans that call for the murder or ouster or enslavement of half the human race, these things cause harm. Real harm. The people they target live in fear afterwards. Stopping feminist marches is just as obvious a good as making it illegal to threaten someone's life is.

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  5. Kill all men <- this is a death threat, and according to you is illegal and should be punished. Everyone who posted or reposted this on twitter should be punished.

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    1. Funny, I can actually tell the difference between a threat that has the potential to seriously oppress people due to the chance of it occurring, and someone spouting off nonsense.

      I don't support anyone saying 'kill all men', and I think it is reprehensible, but both you and I are perfectly able to tell the difference between people blowing off steam and people causing actual harm with their threats.

      Pretending you don't understand that is making your argument look foolish.

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  6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahar_Mustafa_race_row_incident
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/otto-squire/bahar-mustafa-beating-sex_b_7517994.html
    It is not that *I* can't tell the difference, but that the law cannot. I'm trying to convince you that giving the authorities yet more power for suppression of speech is a Very Bad Idea(tm). Locking up two feminists and one comedian (see Mike Ward) for every white nationalist in order to make Jews "feel" a bit more safe isn't improving society one bit, yet these stories show that that is exactly what will happen...

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    1. I feel like you are mistaken about how the law works. The law is not hard coded in the words in the statutes, it's an ever-shifting thing that involves a lot of judgment and application of sense. If people can tell the difference then it necessarily follows that the law can tell the difference.

      In fact coverage of the Mike Ward case spelled out the three part test that is used to determine whether discrimination occurred. The only threat to free speech in that case is the threat to our right to single out specific people and insult them based on disabilities. Further, Mike Ward was not sent to prison. The human rights tribunal may have offered a lower burden of proof than a court case for defamation would have, but defamation and slander have legal consequences even without those laws - this represented a shifting of the line, not a strange new realm of stopping speech.

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  7. Wait, wait, wait... You're *defending* the Mike Ward decision?! A *comedian* calls some guy *ugly*, and a court finds him *guilty* of discriminatory/hate speech, and you have no problem with that? Then in the same breath you say the law has good judgement and is sensible? It was a *joke* and *ugly* is one of the mildest insults I can think of.

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    1. I don't know that the Mike Ward case was decided correctly, but you should really read what happened because your summary does not give an appropriate understanding. He, as part of his show, repeatedly called out a particular disabled kid by name and belittled and insulted the kid. Multiple incidences of this occurred. This guy picked a *specific* disabled kid to try to publicly torment. He ended up getting fined. Are you really that incensed about an absolute asshole being fined for abominable behaviour like this?

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    2. You will find, if you read my posts, that I am far from authoritarian. You act as though I support the verdict, when in fact I haven't said either way, I just characterized your summary as misleading, and Mike Ward as an asshole.

      Remember, if you will, that I didn't write about Mike Ward in my post. I specifically talked about penalties for death threats, which Nazi symbols are part of. I didn't say that we should have courts fining comedians! You are the one suggesting that these are one in the same, and honestly I don't know why. My post didn't cover situations like Mike Ward's at all, since to the best of my knowledge he did nothing to support a genocide.

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  8. GAH! That's my point. The law starts by shutting down genocide speech and hits Bahar Mustafa and Mike Ward on the way down the slippery slope.
    The reason I gave concrete examples is because this isn't a hypothetical. It's happening NOW. Do you really think that it will get magically better and governments will stop overreaching?

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    1. The slippery slope is a fallacy. I don't advocate jailing comedians for being assholes - I advocate specifically making our existing forbiddance regarding death threats apply to death threats made against groups, for example, nazis. Does the government overreach? Sure. But you have provided one example of overreach, not convinced me at all that preventing nazis from campaigning is less important than these possible abuses. Just because some people might be convicted wrongly for murder does not mean we should make murder legal, it means we should be very careful about how we word and implement our prohibitions against murder.

      When the government overreaches the logical conclusion is not to legalize everything. It is to step in and specifically address the overreach, to push it back to where it belongs.

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